Should Albert Belle be in the HOF?

[sportscardtheory]

He had glaucoma. He didn't retire from being hit in the face.

Oh damn. I always thought he got it from getting hit in the face with a baseball.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Ok then what about Koufax? No difference between Koufax and Belle's injuries - in terms of bodies breaking down.

Edit

 

[markakis8]

Last I checked, writers dont look at a person's season averages, but their overall career numbers.

No one is discounting what he did, but his overall numbers are not HOF worthy.

OOOOH, Is that why Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Ralph Kiner, and Tony Perez are in the HOF? Cause Belle has better career numbers than those guys.

Belle had one less homer than Jim Rice and more homers than Ralph Kiner and Tony Perez.

Belle had a higher OPS than Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffey, and Willie McCovey

 

[sportscardtheory]

Okay, actually Puckett's glaucoma certainly DID stem from being hit in the face with a fastball the season before. He missed the final 3 and a half games of 1995, started ST in 1996 and woke up one day and couldn't see out of one eye. He never recovered.

 

[cubfan131]

Apparently Puckett just randomly lost sight in his eye. Still more of a "flukey" injury, but if they put Puckett and Koufax in, then Belle certainly deserved MUCH more consideration than he got. Hopefully he gets more recognition from the Veterans Committee.

This is my line of thought as well. I don't necessarily think that Belle's career was HOF worthy but given the precedent set with other players whose careers were cut short he deserved more of a shot that what he received.

 

[markakis8]

I'm not gonna lie though, I would have a completely different opinion on the matter if the HOF wasn't already watered down. But I see the guys in the HOF already and I saw Albert Belle play his entire career and I'm like "something's wrong here"

 

[sportscardtheory]

This is my line of thought as well. I don't necessarily think that Belle's career was HOF worthy but given the precedent set with other players whose careers were cut short he deserved more of a shot that what he received.

Actually, Puckett's glaucoma certainly DID stem from being hit in the face with a fastball the season before. He missed the final 3 and a half games of 1995, started ST in 1996 and woke up one day and couldn't see out of one eye. He never recovered.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Another HOFer with a career shortened by injury was Roy Campanella. He got it bad on two fronts, he started late at age 26 and then lost the tail end of his career due to a car accident which left him paralyzed. He only played 10 years in MLB.

 

[shayscards79]

I voted yes, always been a huge fan..... he deserves to get in, especially if they vote in any of the juicers.

and here is my favorite quote from NYT sports writer Robert Lipsyte in regards to Albert Belle and his attitude.. again, making perfect sense as to why he never won that MVP.

"Madden is basically saying, 'He was not nice to me, so let's screw him.' Sportswriters anoint heroes in basically the same way you have crushes in junior high school... you've got someone like Albert Belle, who is somehow basically ungrateful for this enormous opportunity to play this game. If he's going to appear to us as a surly *******, then we'll cover him that way. And then, of course, he's not gonna talk to us anymore—it's self-fulfilling."

 

[uniquebaseballcards]

I remember cringing when he went to the Sox - thinking of the Thomas/Belle combo.

Where did the Sox place Belle in the lineup?

That's right - behind Frank Thomas, in the four hole.

That says enough right here.

 

[Frow]

OOOOH, Is that why Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Ralph Kiner, and Tony Perez are in the HOF? Cause Belle has better career numbers than those guys.

Belle had one less homer than Jim Rice and more homers than Ralph Kiner and Tony Perez.

Belle had a higher OPS than Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffey, and Willie McCovey

Let us not overlook the fact that Jim Rice also had over 700 more hits, more RBI, higher BA, per your own admission more HR and if you consider Jim Rice questionable as a HOFer to begin with how exactly does that make Albert Belle look any better? Plus the other two guys have better stats as well and played in a completely different era. The only arguments you've made for Belle are actually showing exactly why he shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Hell he wasn't even the best player on his own team and Belle wasn't the most feared player of his time, the Lofton, Viszquel, Thome, Belle Alomar lineup was.

 

[James52411]

I think Belle was a top 10 slugger of his era, but certainly was not clearly a better hitter than Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey, Jr., Mike Piazza, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, or Juan Gonzalez.

 

[sportscardtheory]

Forgot about this.

http://www.freedomcardboard.com/forum/threads/102963-Who-Am-I-12

"Using per-162 game averages, I average more runs than Honus Wagner, more hits than Willie Mays, more doubles than Stan Musial, more homeruns than Hank Aaron, more RBIs than Hank Aaron, more total bases than Ty Cobb, have a higher batting average than Frank Robinson, have a higher slugging percentage than Mickey Mantle, have a higher on-base percentage than George Brett and have a higher OPS than Tris Speaker."

 

[jbhofmann]

Belle > Jim Rice

by a long shot.

 

[saucywombat]

Personally Albert Belle was one of my favorite players when I was collecting as a kid. I liked his bad attitude and smashing the ball all over the place as part of a very high octane Cleveland Indian team.

With that said I thought it was clearly established that he was a user and that the abuse of steroids often leads to deterioration of joints (see Lyle Alzado for bad hips) and that was the reason for his short career.

If clean he'd definitely be a solid candidate but would have struggled to get votes because of his persona and lack of championships.

He was a great player but no Hall (he'll be in line with Palmeiro, Gonzalez, Bonds, etc. waiting for a future where people may have a different perspective on the "Steroid Era".)

 

[sportscardtheory]

Personally Albert Belle was one of my favorite players when I was collecting as a kid. I liked his bad attitude and smashing the ball all over the place as part of a very high octane Cleveland Indian team.

With that said I thought it was clearly established that he was a user and that the abuse of steroids often leads to deterioration of joints (see Lyle Alzado for bad hips) and that was the reason for his short career.

If clean he'd definitely be a solid candidate but would have struggled to get votes because of his persona and lack of championships.

He was a great player but no Hall (he'll be in line with Palmeiro, Gonzalez, Bonds, etc. waiting for a future where people may have a different perspective on the "Steroid Era".)

He has never been tied to PED abuse to my knowledge. Simply thinking that a player "may have used" is COMPLETELY unfair to that player. This is why I don't like what Bagwell is going through. He has ZERO links or ties and even stated that he never used, yet people still act like he was a user.

 

[predatorkj]

He has never been tied to PED abuse to my knowledge. Simply thinking that a player "may have used" is COMPLETELY unfair to that player. This is why I don't like what Bagwell is going through. He has ZERO links or ties and even stated that he never used, yet people still act like he was a user.

Ha! Perhaps. But you know what....I read the Chronicle every day and Jerome Solomon and Richard Justice are the biggest homers I've ever read a column from. One day they are blasting Clemens(Solomon usually plays bad cop and Justice good cop). The next day they flip flop. It's insane. Over the years...after all this steroids scandal has been unleashed, I feel safe saying that despite reading their ideas every day, I still don't know what their real thoughts on all of this are.

And you're expecting them to report or dig up dirt on Bagwell? When Andro was discovered in Mac's locker during the 98 season, the couple of guys reporting it got blasted big time for doing so. People don't want to dig up dirt. Hell...the guys in San Francisco actually were the only ones with a pair and did some digging. Without them(Fainaru-Wada and Williams) the whole country would have just played the parrot and reported what they were told by people coming out a courthouse. These guys actually took the bull by the horns and went digging. Bags and Biggio are the closest things to sports heroes we have around here for the astros. They are like gods down here. There is no way in hell any digging is going on. And I doubt some guy from the New York times or Boston Globe is gonna get a wild hair and go digging for dirt on some players in Houston. There is a reason Bags doesn't have dirt. The people in charge of finding it DON'T WANT TO FIND IT! You know what's funnier still? The whole deal with the affair he had with the Brown Hand Center's founder's wife is hush hush too. It's been reported but not the way you'd expect them to cover it. If that had been A-Rod...or somebody else of the like...they would have crucified his ass. Down here? Nope.

Trust me. They don't want to dig up dirt on players here. We don't have the mega superstars or the big time market. So they aren't willing to drag what little we have through the mud. So is Bags guilty of using roids? I believe he is but I'll agree I have not a shred of evidence. But I'll also gladly admit there hasn't been a soul down here actively looking to check and see. So at least keep that in mind.

 

[MansGame]

OOOOH, Is that why Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Ralph Kiner, and Tony Perez are in the HOF? Cause Belle has better career numbers than those guys.

Belle had one less homer than Jim Rice and more homers than Ralph Kiner and Tony Perez.

Belle had a higher OPS than Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, Ken Griffey, and Willie McCovey

Good point...

I'm not gonna lie though, I would have a completely different opinion on the matter if the HOF wasn't already watered down. But I see the guys in the HOF already and I saw Albert Belle play his entire career and I'm like "something's wrong here"

+1

Forgot about this.

http://www.freedomcardboard.com/forum/threads/102963-Who-Am-I-12

"Using per-162 game averages, I average more runs than Honus Wagner, more hits than Willie Mays, more doubles than Stan Musial, more homeruns than Hank Aaron, more RBIs than Hank Aaron, more total bases than Ty Cobb, have a higher batting average than Frank Robinson, have a higher slugging percentage than Mickey Mantle, have a higher on-base percentage than George Brett and have a higher OPS than Tris Speaker."

This is VERY interesting, thanks for tracking down

Belle > Jim Rice

by a long shot.

+1

 

[Brewer Andy]

I say yes, he should be in. Then again, I don't decry the "watering down" of the HOF either. I'm all for Donnie Baseball and Mark Grace getting in too. There are 100's of guys enshrined in the Hall whose names I bet I've never heard of, much less would a more casual fan. I don't think more players getting the honor would confuse anyone about who the greatest legends of all time are, nor does it diminish the legacy of the Ruths, Cobbs, and Johnsons just because Joey has a plaque in the same building.

 

[nosterbor]

Agree there. Belle was a much more dynamic hitter than McGwire. I think if people saw Belle's per-162 games stats alongside some of the best ever without knowing it was him, their opinions would change.

Juan Gonzalez's 162 games stats are just EYE POPPING as is Belle's
JUAN
[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table row_summable"]
[TR="class: stat_total hl"]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: left"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]162[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]686[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]629[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]102[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]186[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]135[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]44[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]122[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].295[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].343[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].561[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].904[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]132[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]353[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Belle
[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table row_summable"]
[TR="class: stat_total hl"]
[TD="align: right"]162[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]703[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]616[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]103[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]182[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]130[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]101[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].295[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].369[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].564[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].933[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]144[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]347[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
They were both awesome hitters. Juan's carrier was over at 32 with that hamstring tear. And he is now off the ballot FACE PALM!
[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table row_summable"]
[TR="class: stat_total hl"]
[TD="colspan: 4, align: left"]By the way here is Jeff Bagwells. If he gets in and Juan and Albert do not the hall is a JOKE!
[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table row_summable"]
[TR="class: stat_total hl"]
[TD="align: right"]162[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]711[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]587[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]114[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]174[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]115[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]106[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]117[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].297[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].408[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].540[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].948[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]149[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]317[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][TABLE="class: sortable stats_table row_summable"]
[TR="class: stat_total hl"]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]