Yunel

[craftysouthpaw]

I was not a fan of this trade for the Braves when it was made and I hate it more and more with every error made by Gonzalez and with every swing he takes at a ball a foot off the plate.

The Braves biggest flaw the past 20 years IMO is their over reliance on popularity in the clubhouse and in Bobby's book. You don't like Yunel? Tough s#$%. The guy is amazing on defense and can rake for a SS (first half of this year not withstanding). This deal will haunt the Braves for years and if it ends up costing them wins in 2010, it will be an utter debacle.

 

[ronfromfresno]

Gonzalez made a couple of great plays against the Giants this last weekend, cost the Giants a game.

 

[rehmus]

couldnt agree less.

yunel doesnt try hard. the braves won in spite of him. gonzalez is no all star and his better days are behind him but the stats alone make it worth it.

i dont ever recall thinking of Yunel being above average on defense or in any other category. his laziness always seemed to me to be his dominant characteristic. its not the fact that the laziness is contagious (ie. not the clubhouse cancer argument), to me, but if run out a freaking ground ball every so often, things tend to happen.

 

[casmith12]

I was not a fan of this trade for the Braves when it was made and I hate it more and more with every error made by Gonzalez and with every swing he takes at a ball a foot off the plate.

The Braves biggest flaw the past 20 years IMO is their over reliance on popularity in the clubhouse and in Bobby's book. You don't like Yunel? Tough s#$%. The guy is amazing on defense and can rake for a SS (first half of this year not withstanding). This deal will haunt the Braves for years and if it ends up costing them wins in 2010, it will be an utter debacle.

I completely respect your opinion, but I think that you are very wrong. Yunel was a cancer to the clubhouse, and teams can not preform as well as they should if a person like that is disrupting the atmosphere. Reliance on popularity in the clubhouse is the reason why the Braves are the Braves. I have played (and still play) many competitive sports, and I can tell you that one player that is not "in the boat" can ruin a perfectly good team. Oh, and Bobby's book has one achieved a world series, consecutive playoff apperences from 1991-2005, 4 manager of the year awards, and the 4th all time in the wins catagory for managers. I believe that trading Yunel was the BEST decision the Braves have made in many years!

 

[craftysouthpaw]

First and foremost, I appreciate the feedback and more importantly, the civil tone you guys have used in your responses. That has been lacking on this site far too often lately. Thanks for not calling me an idiot! Now, onward with my thoughts for what little they are worth.

I played ball in HS and dabbled in college and I'll take the ***** that helps me win over the nice guy every time. And I think Yunel's issues were way overblown. He didn't hustle any less than Chipper or guys like Fred McGriff but somehow took a beating for it - probably because of language. Clubhouse chemistry plays a role for sure but it is way overrated and typically is used as a narrative after the fact. Winning tends to cure most chemistry issues.

Would I prefer he hustled more and worked on his attitude (or at least the perception of his attitude)? Absolutely. But I still would never deal him for Alex Gonzalez. Same reason Florida woudl be foolish to deal Hanley for 50 cents on the dollar for a David Eckstein clone.

In my opinion, it is Bobby's preference for his guys as the reason the team floundered in the playoffs time after time. I think he is probably the best regular season manager ever and one of the worst post season managers ever and it is probably the same skills that contributes to both - his loyalty (often misplaced) and patience.

As for Yunel's standing against his peers, his career OPS+ is 105 with yearly amounts of 118, 103, 116, and 79. Which is outstanding for a SS. By comparison, Gonzalez is at 81 for his career and has never been above 100 (i.e league average for all positions) until this year. He is basically an out machine. Yunel has been in the league for 4 years and his lifetime WARP (wins above replacement) is 17.3 which is almost twice as high as the 9.6 put up by Gonzalez despite being in the league for almost 10 more years.

Defensively, Yunel is clearly above average no matter which advanced metric you want to throw out there. Total Zone Runs for SS - 5th, 1st, and 4th the last 3 years. Range Factor per 9 - 3rd, outside the top 10, and 3rd the past 3 years. Range Factor per game - 2nd, 5th, and 2nd the past 3 years. Ulimate Zone Runs - 6th, 15th, and 7th. Range Runs - 4th, 13th, and 10th. Plays outside of zone - 2nd, 5th, and 1st. etc., etc., etc. And the scouting reports are equally as positive. Gonzalez compares pretty favorable with him on defense by the numbers. Granted it has been a small sample size, but there have been several occasions I've been watching a game when I've muttered "Yunel would have made that play".

All things being equal, the team with Yunel will win more games than the team with Gonzalez. And that is what matters.

 

[blitzerlover]

First and foremost, I appreciate the feedback and more importantly, the civil tone you guys have used in your responses. That has been lacking on this site far too often lately. Thanks for not calling me an idiot! Now, onward with my thoughts for what little they are worth.

I played ball in HS and dabbled in college and I'll take the ***** that helps me win over the nice guy every time. And I think Yunel's issues were way overblown. He didn't hustle any less than Chipper or guys like Fred McGriff but somehow took a beating for it - probably because of language. Clubhouse chemistry plays a role for sure but it is way overrated and typically is used as a narrative after the fact. Winning tends to cure most chemistry issues.


Would I prefer he hustled more and worked on his attitude (or at least the perception of his attitude)? Absolutely. But I still would never deal him for Alex Gonzalez. Same reason Florida woudl be foolish to deal Hanley for 50 cents on the dollar for a David Eckstein clone.

In my opinion, it is Bobby's preference for his guys as the reason the team floundered in the playoffs time after time. I think he is probably the best regular season manager ever and one of the worst post season managers ever and it is probably the same skills that contributes to both - his loyalty (often misplaced) and patience.

As for Yunel's standing against his peers, his career OPS+ is 105 with yearly amounts of 118, 103, 116, and 79. Which is outstanding for a SS. By comparison, Gonzalez is at 81 for his career and has never been above 100 (i.e league average for all positions) until this year. He is basically an out machine. Yunel has been in the league for 4 years and his lifetime WARP (wins above replacement) is 17.3 which is almost twice as high as the 9.6 put up by Gonzalez despite being in the league for almost 10 more years.

Defensively, Yunel is clearly above average no matter which advanced metric you want to throw out there. Total Zone Runs for SS - 5th, 1st, and 4th the last 3 years. Range Factor per 9 - 3rd, outside the top 10, and 3rd the past 3 years. Range Factor per game - 2nd, 5th, and 2nd the past 3 years. Ulimate Zone Runs - 6th, 15th, and 7th. Range Runs - 4th, 13th, and 10th. Plays outside of zone - 2nd, 5th, and 1st. etc., etc., etc. And the scouting reports are equally as positive. Gonzalez compares pretty favorable with him on defense by the numbers. Granted it has been a small sample size, but there have been several occasions I've been watching a game when I've muttered "Yunel would have made that play".

All things being equal, the team with Yunel will win more games than the team with Gonzalez. And that is what matters.

I don't think thats true at all. Yunel didn't hustle, and his head was not in the right place. I think he's a great player, but he really, really, needed a change of scenery.

 

[cgilmo]

gah iiiiidiot ::facepalm::

sorry, had to do it

 

[phillyfan0417]

gah iiiiidiot ::facepalm::

sorry, had to do it

gilmo kitty angry

 

[bmc398]

First and foremost, I appreciate the feedback and more importantly, the civil tone you guys have used in your responses. That has been lacking on this site far too often lately. Thanks for not calling me an idiot! Now, onward with my thoughts for what little they are worth.

I played ball in HS and dabbled in college and I'll take the ***** that helps me win over the nice guy every time. And I think Yunel's issues were way overblown. He didn't hustle any less than Chipper or guys like Fred McGriff but somehow took a beating for it - probably because of language. Clubhouse chemistry plays a role for sure but it is way overrated and typically is used as a narrative after the fact. Winning tends to cure most chemistry issues.

Would I prefer he hustled more and worked on his attitude (or at least the perception of his attitude)? Absolutely. But I still would never deal him for Alex Gonzalez. Same reason Florida woudl be foolish to deal Hanley for 50 cents on the dollar for a David Eckstein clone.

In my opinion, it is Bobby's preference for his guys as the reason the team floundered in the playoffs time after time. I think he is probably the best regular season manager ever and one of the worst post season managers ever and it is probably the same skills that contributes to both - his loyalty (often misplaced) and patience.

As for Yunel's standing against his peers, his career OPS+ is 105 with yearly amounts of 118, 103, 116, and 79. Which is outstanding for a SS. By comparison, Gonzalez is at 81 for his career and has never been above 100 (i.e league average for all positions) until this year. He is basically an out machine. Yunel has been in the league for 4 years and his lifetime WARP (wins above replacement) is 17.3 which is almost twice as high as the 9.6 put up by Gonzalez despite being in the league for almost 10 more years.

Defensively, Yunel is clearly above average no matter which advanced metric you want to throw out there. Total Zone Runs for SS - 5th, 1st, and 4th the last 3 years. Range Factor per 9 - 3rd, outside the top 10, and 3rd the past 3 years. Range Factor per game - 2nd, 5th, and 2nd the past 3 years. Ulimate Zone Runs - 6th, 15th, and 7th. Range Runs - 4th, 13th, and 10th. Plays outside of zone - 2nd, 5th, and 1st. etc., etc., etc. And the scouting reports are equally as positive. Gonzalez compares pretty favorable with him on defense by the numbers. Granted it has been a small sample size, but there have been several occasions I've been watching a game when I've muttered "Yunel would have made that play".

All things being equal, the team with Yunel will win more games than the team with Gonzalez. And that is what matters.

Screw you Mike you suck! JK man

I see what you're saying with the glove aspect of it, especially lately and especially when the errors have been so glaring and in big situations where the game was on the line. On the other hand, While Yunel is a more consistent fielder his enthusiasm for the game just never ever showed and it was reflected in his offensive mindset a lot and crept in a bit on defense too as far as that big error catching him as well.

As far as this haunting the Braves, I think they can trade a young arm (Tehran, Vizcaino, Delgado, Hoover, Minor) for a young shortstop (maybe get Andrus back???) and not skip a beat. I could see them making such a move at next years trade deadline.

Nobody is saying Yunel won't be missed at times for overall consistency but his off field issues and lack of #s were hard to ignore this year. I think its a good thing that he's doing well in a new place, shows hes a good ball player. Once he gets tired of Canada tho the crappy attitude will come back and his #s will slide again.

 

[JzWand]

Ever since he came to Toronto hes been doing well.
Fans have embraced him and we are seeing hes a really good player.

I am happy with the trade so far!

The jays are not the best team out there but they work their butts off and are exciting and Yunel seems to have fit in nicely!

 

[craftysouthpaw]

Thanks Gilmore! I asked for it.

It might be true he needed a change of scenery. But if that is the case, I think the Braves are at least partially to blame for him getting to that point.

But all the other pop psychology stuff about Yunel is - to me anyway - just an after-the-fact narrative to fit neatly around people's perceptions. And he was a guy that Bobby didn't like from the get go and was scape goated far too often.

You can say he was lazy or indifferent but his numbers over time sure paint a much different picture. Maybe he could have been better but he was - and still is - better than most shortstops in the game. Ask Phillies and Mets fans who they would rather have at SS for the Braves and I think this becomes clear.

And I just saw Joe Posnanski's latest blog post and it couldn't have been more timely. Yet another advanced defensive metric that shows just how good Yunel is.

Best defensive players in 2010 by Dewan Plus/Minus
First base: Daric Barton, Oakland, +20
Second base: Orlando Hudson, Minnesota, +18
Shortstop: Yunel Escobar, Toronto, +32
Third base: Ryan Zimmerman, Washington, +23
Left field: Carl Crawford, Tampa Bay, +22
Center field: Austin Jackson, Detroit, +22*; Franklin Gutierrez, Seattle, +18.
Right field: Jason Heyward, Atlanta, +19*; Justin Upton, Arizona, +15.
*Jackson and Heyward are rookies, and so there’s not that much data on them so far … though they are both clearly playing very well defensively. Gutierrez has now shown over his career, that he’s one of the best defenders in all of baseball, regardless of position. Upton has for the last couple of years proven to be one of the best right fielders in the game.

 

[cubfan131]

Clubhouse chemistry absolutely matters. Just look at the Cubs in 2009 with Bradley and the Cubs in 2010 with Zambrano. They gave Escobar a chance and it didn't work. I don't think you can fault the Braves for making a change. It may come back to bite them but it is hard to say it didn't make them a better team in 2010.

 

[pigskincardboard]

Did anyone expect this to go any differently than it has?

Escobar's out to prove that he isn't a ******* and he's doing a great job. The problems will come next year, just like they did with Atlanta. Players that lack hustle always find it in a hurry when they switch teams.

 

[BluesBroSJ]

I have tried and tried to keep quiet on this subject. I hated the trade when it was made, and with every dropped pop up, booted grounder I hate it more and more. In an effort to be completely forthcoming I am a yunel fan. But I absolutely believe it had more to do with is percieved attitude and "laziness". The throw that pulled Glaus off the bag that was the precieved "last straw" was not that bad but blown wayyyy out of proportion due it it being Yunel. Nobody is calling for Hanson to be traded after the throw he made today that about got Glaus run over. I love my braves but they ran Yunel out of town for .02 on the dollar. It has made the braves MUCH weaker, and it will show over the course of the rest of the season.